To Shift A Nation, pt. 2

Join us for part two of our conversation with Craig Docksteader on shifting a nation. We explore his six-point Roadmap to Change, highlighting the necessity of a multi-generational vision, keeping first love central, and ensuring repentance leads to action. Discover how the Kingdom's influence impacts everyday life.

Transcript

The first point is returned. And that's that us as Christians have to return to our first love. We have to ensure that that our love for Christ and our love for what he wants to do on the earth is number one. And that when we get that in place, honestly a lot of things flow from there. And if we don't get that in place, it can be a poison to all. >> thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. That's right. This is [music] This is it. The first priority is first love. Welcome to Prayer Stream, a podcast from the National House of Prayer in Ottawa. We're here to have conversations [music] with leaders and authors about prayer and how it intersects with the local

church, politics and government, Israel, and anything else that might pop up in the news. Join me, [music] your host Brad Fiddler, along with Chris Byberg, as we wade into the prayer stream. All right. [music] Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Prayer Stream podcast. I'm your host Brad Fiddler, here with Chris Byberg. Chris, say hi. Hello, everybody. You may notice we have with us again Craig Dockstader, author of the book To Shift a Nation. Craig, welcome back. Thanks for doing this again. It's a pleasure. I've I'm enjoying the conversation. Thanks for inviting me. >> Yes, we are we've been enjoying it, too. So, so let's pick up We talked in the

first episode a bit about change and how we how we've sought change in the political sphere as a church, maybe in some wrong ways, looking for for a good king and putting all our hopes on that and some things like that. And we looked at how God's strategy for change is really through the kingdom of God, bringing the kingdom here and now. And so now we're going to kind of move into, you know, the third part of your book is you you entitled a roadmap for change. And so, yeah, let's talk about the fleshing out of that With change. What does it look like to bring the influence of the kingdom? And you lay out six checkpoints for us to follow kind of on the road to affecting change in Canada.

We don't have to drill down on each of those six, but do you want to just kind of touch on the six and then let's see where the conversation goes. Sure, yeah. It's um the interesting thing is like I I go through the six kind of quickly like about a paragraph or two for each one in the book and then we go on and the rest of the chapters don't deal with those six. They because they're dealing with the things behind these six points. >> Yes. What allows us to do these things? So, it's kind of a interesting way to do it, but I thought it was effective. But the points like I thought it was important to sort of say, "Okay, well, let's try to get practical here. Let's

try to say what what does this look like?" And so, that that's the idea of of the road map. And the first point is what on the on the on the six points is return. And that's that us as Christians have to return to our first love. Now, maybe we're there already, but maybe we're not there. As we know in the book of Revelation that comes from the book of Revelation that idea of returning to our first love. Jesus speaks to the church and says, "Look, you have left you're doing this and you're doing this and you're doing this and you're doing this. You're doing all these great things, but I have this against you. You have left your first love." We have to ensure that that our love for Christ and

our love for what he wants to do on the earth is number one. And that when we get that in place, honestly, a lot of things flow from there. And if we don't get that in place, it can be a poisoned well. Right. The rest is a grind. Yeah. Main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. >> that's right. This is it. The first priority is first love. I love it. And if if we if we get that in place, then the other ones can follow. And the second one is is res- res- So, it return, restore. And restore here is the idea of restoring, strengthening our fundamental institutions in society. Families, marriages, relationships. Like these These are what can be the hidden things in life, right? We go

home. How do we live? How do we treat our spouse? How do How are we raising our children? These are These are often hidden, but core, key, fundamental, foundational. And so that That's the second one. The third one is is reform. So you can see it then begins to move out into society, where we reform our community, culture, and society by being salt, leaven, and light. And the idea here is that we don't retreat from society. We engage in society because we are We've returned. We're being restored. And then after that is the The point is renew. We have to impact and renew our societal infrastructure, our laws, policies, guidelines. This is where we're engaged

in the public square. You know, it's not just societal societal. Now [clears throat] it starts to become the impacting policy. The fifth one is run. We need to run for public office and be present in the gates of the nation. It's not one or the other. Like it's all all of these things. And then after run, the sixth point is repeat. We need We need to realize that this is an inter a multi-generational vision. We have to pass these things on to the next generation. So they can continue on. They're not starting over and trying to figure it all all over again. This is not like a 10-year vision. This is a 100-year vision. I'd like to think it's going to happen

in 10 or 20 years, and maybe it will. But our approach needs to be that this is multi-generational. So those those were the six points. So we're just highlighting return, restore, reform, renew, run, and repeat. And that sort of lays out a bit of a Yeah. road map. Like you say, checkpoints and lots of alliteration. That's nice. I love the fact that of the repeat, that you're building you're building legacy. Yeah. So often we are so quick. We want a quick fix. We want it to be done fast and we don't even think in terms of what's this going to look like for my great-grandchildren. >> Yeah, exactly. And we don't even get that way. We go maybe our children, but

we need to be thinking long long term. And I know a lot of people say, "Well, Jesus could come back tomorrow." He could. Yeah, yes, he could. He could. But we need to be building long long term. >> Yeah. I love this. Yeah. I I now have I now have uh six grandchildren. Mhm. You really start to think about it more. This whole idea of legacy. What am I leaving? How am I equipping the next generation? Who's going to Who's going to be in public office to lead them, you know, 30 years from now, 40 years from now, kind of thing? Are they like just that whole idea of my runway is getting shorter. I don't know how long it is. Only God knows. But let's be realistic.

I'm 64 years old. I'm not going to live forever. And so you start to you start to to to realize that this is actually pretty important, this multi-generational, intergenerational transfers that we don't think it's all going to happen in our lifetime. It might, but it probably won't, to be honest. Yeah, but our but our hearts should be long term because really you plant a tree I I was driving by an old neighborhood that I we lived in about 20 years ago and and I remember planting these trees and they were just little tiny trees. And today They were the Colorado blue spruce. They're 25, 30 feet high and they take up way more space than I thought they were going to

take up. And you have to think this way. It's like what are of seeds we're planting? What's it going to look like? What is this tree going to What is this sapling going to look like for my grandchildren? And my grandchildren. This is reminding me of I I heard about It was when Pope Francis was still in place and they they'd invited a number of evangelical leaders to the Vatican and they had a little summit or meeting or whatever and I remember hearing one of these pastors who came back from that said, "One of the cardinals made a comment to him and he said, 'You know what the difference is between us Catholics and you?'" He's He's specifically talking about like

non-denominational evangelicals. He said, "You think in terms of months and weeks, we think in terms of centuries." Yeah. >> Yeah. And it was like, "Oh my goodness, yeah. That's different." And again, it's that thing This was a theme in our first conversation is this We want something big and suddenly and instant and now and we rarely want to do the work to lay the groundwork for something that's going to last for decades or generations, right? It's like those great cathedrals in Europe. >> Yeah. Centuries Almost a century or more to build and that is how you build legacy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You would never start a building like that if you had a short Right.

Yeah. Right. Right. We want to get it up as soon as possible so we can enjoy it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, we want longevity. We're happy with longevity, right? But God is He wants us to build Again, it's that mustard seed. It It just goes everywhere and it takes time. The problem with laying out those six points right out is Now, where do we go? Yeah. Which one of those We're We're talking about We're talking about the last one first. Makes sense, right? >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's right. But it's also reminding me of We'll touch on this for a second and we'll go back to the beginning, but I'm just thinking of you know, the importance of repeat. Yeah. >> And and and legacy is that is that you

know, it doesn't last forever. Just because we're walking in something doesn't mean the next generations automatically going to walk in it. And I'm thinking of Josiah and you know, King Josiah and in Jeremiah's day and how he he made so many sweeping reforms. He was incredibly zealous for the Lord, for righteousness, for all these things and and the nation turned around under him, but Jeremiah's there going, "Guys, trouble is coming because the rot's deeper than we think." Yeah. >> And and it's not assumed that the good times will just keep rolling. If we If we get to a season where we where let's say in my lifetime we did get back to some sort of Christian society. If that

did happen, there's no guarantee that'll continue. It There has to be There has to be this this this this posture of we're making sure we're passing something on. Yeah. And that last thing on that for me is that I'm just remembering God called Abraham and he said, I believe it's when God showed up with the two angels and they told him, you know, you're going to have Isaac. And then they're going on to deal with Sodom and Gomorrah. And God says something to the effect of I chose Abraham because I knew he would pass on to his children the things I've given them. Yeah. I chose him because he's going to make sure he passes this on. He's not going to just sit on it for

himself. And that's Yeah. That's a huge thing about repeat. We have to be willing to and engaged in making sure we pass on what we've got. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. All right, so let's go to the beginning then. So [laughter] Bingo where are we? Now that we're Now that we're done at the end, well, let's So just talk The first one I wanted to spend some time on, return to our foundations, return to first love. The thing of how it has to start with us returning first. Yeah, I got a quote I want to read on that. Do it. Cuz there's a couple of them that I They just They've They've just stuck with me and I highlight them in my own book because it refers to this foundation of our first

love. And it's uh near the beginning of the book, page page 19 actually. It says, I write, "Don't get me wrong, Christians should be fully engaged in the public square. But if we're obsessing about politics and policy when we're not passionate for Jesus and consumed with his heart for the lost, discipling the nation, and seeing heaven come to earth, we are deceiving ourselves. It's like weeding a garden we forgot to plant something in. No matter how hard we work, there still won't be a harvest." What? Wow. >> Yeah, just like you know, and that's we can't park there, but we got to start there. Yeah. >> Yeah. What's that's the key. That's the return the return part. Let's keep our

spiritual lives healthy and whole and fervent and red hot. Lean into Holy Spirit on this. I remember when I started working with with National House of Prayer, you know, one of our main passages is 1 Timothy 2. Urge everyone pray all kinds of prayers for all kinds of people, especially for kings and those in authority, that we may lead peaceful and godly lives, quiet and dignified in every way. And I I'd always heard the passage stopped there. That so we pray for government or we get involved in government so that we can lead a quiet and godly life. So it's it's this entire emphasis on let's make society better, right? But it goes on and he says this is good and pleasing to

God who desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. The end of the passage is not that we have a comfortable and quiet life. The end of the passage is that people would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That's the goal. That's the that's the thing. That's the planting you're talking about, right? Is to >> Yeah, exactly. It's It's somewhere in my book. Cuz I talked about like what Well, what are we doing in the public square? If we're we're supposed to be there, what are we doing? And I refer to that exact scripture saying, "Look, this is the key. We're there to ensure that the environment, the the fabric of our nation, the laws of our nation allow the

gospel to go forth, allow us to live out our Christian lives, allow us to disciple people, allow us to be that salt and light. I mean, no no state and no law can ever stop us. But, it can impede us. If you look at the Soviet Union, right? In the Soviet Union, the gospel didn't stop. It was still being spread, but it was it was under Yeah, it was a different environment. We don't want that environment. We want the environment where there's that freedom to live our lives peacefully and spread the gospel and the kingdom. The other part of return there is the Let's talk about returning or turning and repentance and for a second in that there has to be action to it. This is

something we've talked about a bit, Chris and I, just the action of of returning and not not just in word, but indeed as well. You know, we often like to, you know, one of the big passages quoted is was a 2 Chronicles 7:14 this if my people or call our name called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face. And the part and turn from their wicked ways, then I'll hear from heaven. And we do a lot of the humbling through prayer and fasting and seeking his face, but there's got to be the and turn from the wicked ways. There's got to be the the actual deed, the act of turning and changing direction and moving back to him. And I think first love is the key

one there like you're saying this returning to loving him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. But, just the actions have to match the words. Yeah, I think sometimes we kind of miss that one, I think. It's easy to talk, especially with social media. Yeah, it's so true. Um I'm not going to wade in here, but I do think it's it's ill it's illustrative of this point where we're seeing things exposed in Christian leadership yep that are is shocking us and it's not just one or two. It just seems to be over and over and over and over again. And so, maybe we have to step back and sort of realize Okay, well, maybe this is part of the reason why we've not seen what we want

to see in in our nation in the nation to the south maybe because because there has not been that that returning. There has there has been we've not been living the lives we should be living in secret that we're saying we're living in public and there has to be there has to be connection because for Holy Spirit to do what he wants to do and we have to realize it's not it's not that God is reluctant. It's that is that he's designed this in a way that he works through us and he works through the church. Sometimes it's personal and sometimes it's corporate. And and we really just have to not that we're out there judging people but rather that we are doing serious

inventory in our own lives. Am I living in pub in secret the way I'm you know, sort of putting what I'm putting forward in public. So important because that comes back to the first love. You know, the back to I really love that we're touching this because so often we think repentance is saying I'm sorry. Yeah. That's only the first part of repentance. It's actually the the Hebrew word for repent is shuv which means turn around but it actually means more than turn around. It's turn around and go home. Right? There is this come back to the house of God. Come back to the place I love Isaiah 56. My house will be a house of prayer for all nations. I have a rabbi friend in Israel who says this. He

says, "No, Chris, my house will be a home of prayer for all nations." It totally changes the connotation that it's not a building but it's a place where we abide from and so this returning home is is is we come to the place where we belong with the Father, but it requires us to produce fruit. >> Yeah, that's so true. >> Like there has to be fruit connected to this. So, once you turn around then and you repent and you go home, there has to be evidence of fruit from this turning around. If it's the same old, same old, if the same old what whether it's a stronghold or whatever it is or attitude, there has to be change. And like the favorite Christian joke is how

many Christians does it take to change a light bulb? Change? What do you mean, change? >> I hadn't heard that one. Okay, I hadn't heard that one. And you know what? For us, it's always change because from glory to glory, He's changing us. Yeah. Yeah. And that that touches on again, like as we can sort of move through these these points, it touches on this same principle that some of it is up to us. And like because we have to get a hold of the fact that what we do or don't do matters and makes a difference. The outcome the final outcome is determined. We know that. It's already written down in the Bible. We know the final outcome. We know who's going to win win, but what does it look like in

our life? What does it look like in our generation? What does it look like for our loved ones? And this is where in the book I used the story of Esther to show this. >> Yes. Cuz Esther was in a position, God put her in a position where she had potentially she had influence. If she used it. Mordecai comes to her and says, "Look, this is the situation. You need to do something." And she's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just hold Just back it up a minute. Do you realize what happens if I go to the king and he doesn't summon me? Like do you realize what's on the line here?" And he's like, you know, you you could do nothing and your people are going to be destroyed and God will raise

up another deliverer. I'm paraphrasing here. But this is what he says. He says, you could do nothing, the consequences are going to be severe. God will raise up another deliverer, but who knows Right. if you were not born for such a brought into the the the king's court for such a time as this. And for such a time as this does not refer to we're on a wonderful roller coaster with the Father and we're just sitting in our chair and enjoying it. Right. to the idea that we have responsibility, but we have to pick it up and run with it. That's key. That's really key. It is. Like you said, the outcome is determined. Like Mordecai says, he will raise up a deliverer, but this is your

window to respond. Yeah. And if you don't respond, you'll miss out. Yeah. We don't really like that. >> What was that? We don't really like that. Like as Christians, we Yeah. It feels like too much depends on us. Like it feel it feels like that. But that's the way God has set it up. Well, it's I would say it's it's not that it depends on us cuz like you said, he'll raise up a deliverer from somewhere else. Final outcome, exactly. >> it's an invitation. He's He's wanting to do this with you. He's wanting to do this through you. You have an opportunity to say yes and step into it. And I think that's the I love that that's the kindness of God and it's also the confidence of God in himself that

he's like, I want you I want you to be part of this. I'm inviting you into it, but if you don't, that's fine. I'll go do it somewhere else. And it's it's not I don't hate you. I'm not against you. It's nothing like that, but if you're not going to step up, I need someone who's going to step up. Yeah. And so there is an invitation in front of us, but if we if we don't respond in that window, it's saying yes while we still have the opportunity, while it's still called today, right? And and not not missing the window like Israel did at Kadesh Barnea when he said, "Trust me, I'll give you the land. Go in." And they said, you know, they listened to the 10 negative spies, "Nope, nope, I don't

want to do that. We're a little scared." And he said, "Okay, you missed your window." And the next day they said, "Okay, we'll go in." And he's like, "No, I'm not with you. You missed the opportunity." Yeah, it's so great. [clears throat] It's yeah, it's it's sobering and it's but it's we we tend to emphasize the negative part of it. Oh, if I miss it then I missed out. Let's focus on here's the window that's in front of you. Here's the opportunity. Seize it. Say yes. Yeah. It's this ability to go on this grand adventure with the Lord. He's presenting this and sometimes it's a little scary. I get it, right? We've done a lot of things where we've moved out and where

we felt the Lord speak to us and we moved into a place what we weren't completely sure about. But because of the obedience, right? It's uh a a a this great adventure. I mean, I look so forward to like even when we we ventured into politics, right? I had no grid for it. I had no idea. I was a worship guy, right? I wanted to lead worship. I I love ministry to the poor. I love moving in in different spheres. I loved being a youth pastor. I loved all those things and then the Lord says, "I want you to go here." And I went, "Why? Why do you want me to go to politics? What did I do wrong? Like, who wants to do that? That's that's Do you know what happens there?" And you know what? It's been the

greatest adventure of our life. And because we took these this risk, we we said, "Lord, we want to partner with you in the family business." And and he says, "Here, I want to give you this. I want you to have this. And you too can be the hands and feet of Jesus because Jesus is living here. So, you have a choice. You can stay on the couch or you can get in the game. Yeah. And get in the game. It is It's It's unbelievably fun. But, you know, one of the saddest things that I I think I've seen is people that have been afraid to move into what God has called them because they thought it's afraid that I'm afraid. I don't want to go into the land. But, the Lord is saying this, be

bold and courageous. >> Yeah. For the Lord your God will go with you. >> Right. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yes. And you know that he's here even when you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, he is there. Yeah. Well, it's just a just a few months ago I was writing in my journal and I cuz I was just I was becoming aware of of the fact that whenever God was giving me to something to do, I found myself getting a little anxious about it. Because it required courage to do it. >> Yeah. Yep. And I I I wrote in my journal, "Where do I feel I need courage today?" Because he always leads us into these things that are beyond our own strength, beyond outside of our comfort

zone. And so, courage, the need for courage has become like a flag to me now. Yeah. >> feel like, "Oh, I'm going to need some courage to do this." I immediately think, "Hmm, that might be something the Father's telling me to do." Cuz like you said, Chris, like how many times in scripture did he does he say, "Fear not. Fear not. Fear not." Do not fear. Be strong and courageous because courage is like we have to sort of expect we're just simply going to need it on our Christian walk. >> Isn't it 365 times there's a command to do not fear? I think I remember hearing that somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I recall that as well. Nice. Never fact-checked it, but that's what I remember. >> [laughter]

>> Seems like you have to fact-check everything. >> that with an asterisk. We think it's 365. We heard that somewhere. So, this is actually, you know, neatly transitioning into we've talked about so return and us us responding to the Lord with obedience, with our actions, saying yes to him, those sorts of things. And then you kind of have this clump of restore, reform, renew. So, bringing change, bringing the change of the kingdom into into different places, into institutions, into communities, and then even into the public school into politics and government and so on. So, yeah, let's let's talk about that. So, leaking the kingdom into bringing the leaven of the kingdom into the world

around us. Yeah. So, there's there's all of the things we're talking about like the the wall the Walmart model, you know, that like stores like that. But, let me let me move to the public square for a minute. Go for it. Because this was an interesting thing like when when um when I was with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and then I was there with an organization called the Center for Prairie Agriculture. And the purpose of that was to get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board's monopoly. Long story to that, but I'll we always took the same strategy. Bottom up. When we when it was with the Center for Prairie Agriculture, we the the whole purpose was to show

farmers that the Wheat Board's monopoly was harming them, not helping them. So, we we just relied on facts and information and and arguments to support that and getting their information out. And it was this very same strategy at the Taxpayers Federation. In fact, my my [clears throat] boss, the founder of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, Kevin Avram, I remember being in the office one day and he got a phone call. And the phone call was was from >> [clears throat] >> Premier Roy Romanow's office. The Premier wanted to speak to him because the organization had been wielding such influence in the province that ironically it resulted in an NDP government. The reason it resulted in

that is because the NDP government promised to balance the bucks. It actually took an NDP government. This is so counter-intuitive. >> [laughter and gasps] >> But it because what had happened is as an organization that the Association of Saskatchewan Taxpayers had shifted the narrative so significantly that now the the political parties were lining up to say, "I'll do that. I'll do that. I'll do that." To the point where the NDP government promised a balanced budget and brought it in. However, when shortly after becoming elected Roy Romanow phones phones my boss, you know, it wasn't him, it was his his people setting it up. And he he said he said this. He said, "This is

going to sound rude, but it it illustrates the point. Why would I want to talk to you?" He actually refused to have a conversation with the premier. And the reason he did was twofold. One, he was always concerned about getting compromised. You know, let's make it let's make a deal. But more fundamentally than that, he realized his real battle was convincing people, not convincing politicians. So, what this did is this this this is a real solid mindset and it's very true. But later, this is Kevin Avram and I kind of I mentioned him as an acknowledgement in the book because a lot of what I learned about grassroots change and how it happened came by working with him. And later he shared he

shared a story with me about how he was he was talking to Preston Manning. And you know, he was was saying to Preston Manning about, you know, this is how this is what you got to do to create change. It's not this top-down political stuff. Preston Manning said to him, and this is a paraphrase, and this is a third-hand story, so I can't verify it, but it's but it's really it impacted me. Preston Manning said to Kevin Avram, "Eventually, what changes at the grassroots level has to be reflected in public policy." Yes. And where we learn where Gail and I learned this this in real life was when we were in Edmonton working for an organization called the the Citizens

Center for for freedom and Citizens Center for Freedom and Democracy. Huge handle. And we were working at this from the grassroots level and it came to the place where we realized we actually have the grassroots support for what needs to happen, yet it's still not happening because the government of the day would not transform it into public policy. So, the decision was made to roll the organization into into a political party known as the Alberta the the Wild Rose Party. And because we needed a political response to >> Right. the realities at the grassroots level. So, so the point is this, we have to focus on grassroots change, but as Christians we need to get into the

public square so that as things shift, that can be reflected in public policy. There are people there who will support that and not just oppose it cuz even when the grassroots changes, there is still opposition at the political level for a season cuz it's like it takes a while for the mentality to change. We need to be present and influencing change in the political, the public policy spheres as well. And that's a key thing to realize as Christians. We got to be present in both places, the prayer room and the public square. Well, the prayer room is supposed to have feet. The scripture says that how beautiful on the feet of those that bring good news. Right.

>> So, we don't stay in the prayer closet. We actually come out of the closet right and we get into the public sphere with the agenda from heaven, with the stuff that the Lord has shared with you, you move it into the into the public sphere and you bring the good news, the righteousness, peace, and joy of the kingdom of God. And that doesn't just mean exclusively. I know you talked about, you know, you moved into and while you want to go and argue with the pagans, but we can do this anywhere. I mean, when you For example, I'm going to I got I got I I'm I'm going to say something might offend everybody on this call. >> Yay. Yeah, for me I would probably shudder and I say, "Lord, please don't

do that. Don't send me there." But with the collapse of the federal NDP, right? Down to seven seats, this would be a glorious opportunity to move in as believers to set to start to change policy. I'm not saying do that, but there's an opening. We saw this with the Ontario Liberals when they became the minivan team, right? They had and went from a supermajority down to seven seats. And this would have been a great opportunity to go in there and change at the EDA, at the grassroots level, start to change policy. However, you don't have to wait till then. The Lord might be speaking to you to go to the Liberals. He might be speaking to you to go to the NDP or the Greens or

the Bloc or even the Conservatives, right? He might be speaking to you to be engaging there. The point is, we said this earlier, be bold and courageous Yeah. and be obedient. Because you're missing out on perhaps on the greatest call in your life, and that's to be obedient to the Father. So, to obey is better than sacrifice. This is what's so important for us. Yeah. Yeah, you you Can I You bring up some You know, you you bring up a hornet's nest of issues here. >> This is what we do. And we go, "Hornet's nest? We can work with that." >> [laughter] >> The truth is The truth is we as Christians we have to grapple with this. Like we cuz we we need Christians in

every political party. And I just have to do a bit of a segue here because we don't want this to be confused with Christian nationalism. Totally for sure. >> not suggesting that we Christians go into parties to take them over and convert all the policy to Christian policy and try to then impose that policy on the nation. That's the opposite of everything we've been saying. We are not talking about Christian nationalism. We are talking about being salt and light and bringing influence in every sphere. And and hopefully in every party. The problem is some of the parties have policies that are very non-Christian. Yes. And that's a challenging thing for Christians today to handle. I think

we're still grappling with this. Like how Okay, how do you how do you do that? How do you How do you as a For example, if you're a pro-life pro-life as I think Christians should be and need to be, how would you be in the Liberal Party? Like what do you do with the fact that there's going to be pride parades and you're going to be asked to march in those? You know, like like what how how do you How do you manage this? I It's a conversation we need we need to have, honestly, because I don't think we can just say the only Christian option is the Conservative Party of Canada. Like that's not going to get us very far. It's not the party of the kingdom of God. Exactly. It's not. It has It has

policies it gets wrong, too. Yep, exactly. And that's that's a good point because even in the Conservative Party, Christians struggle with different policies, right? With the lack of pro-life policy, things like that. And this is a reality, no matter which party we are in. We are going to find conflicts because we are actually of a different country. Yes. It's called the kingdom of heaven. But we have to learn how to navigate those space and not be too critical of those who are trying to navigate those spaces. You know, I I I think about Jonah, for example. You know, Jonah, the Lord says, "I want you to go to Nineveh." It's like saying, "I want you to go to the block Quebec walk."

And and he goes, "Hey, I don't want to do that. They are nothing like my culture. They are nothing what they don't believe in the same stuff. They are evil. I do not want to go there." And God says, "Yeah, you need to go. I want you to go there." And then of course we know the story gets swallowed by fish and he ends up going, changing his mind. So, don't be swallowed by a fish. When the Lord speaks to you, you should go. I know I get pushed back a lot of times because I cuz I've said to members of parliament about No, I think Christians should be in other other parties and they look at me as if I have two heads. It's like, "Why do you want to do that? I want them I think we

should be all on my team, right?" But it's again, we're going back to this thing is that that the the leaven of the kingdom needs to be everywhere. You know, how the NDP started by a Baptist pastor. Yeah. Look at that way. Tommy Douglas. These roots that were started by and they got corrupted because because for some reason got moved and moved and moved. And it's like it's time to go back to those places. If the Lord is speaking to you, yeah, there needs to be change. Like and I love that you said this is not about Christian nationalism, but it's about righteousness, peace and joy. Yeah. Right? And that's what needs to be there. Like when I think it's really

interesting when you listen to Right now we're we're starting to see this phenomenon amongst intellectuals. And we see like for example, Douglas Murray, right? He will say that he is a Christian atheist, right? Because believes in the principles of the book, right? >> Right. He believes in this stuff because he sees it's this part of the foundation of Western society and this is a good thing. He just hasn't made the bridge. But we've seen so many others, you know, 10 years ago Jordan Peterson for For he was in the same place. He was looking at that and today he is he has a relationship with God. So, we see these things where God calls us and is calling us and he may be sending us into places

that are completely godless because he wants to bring his salt and light there. And that's what you have to think about that it's not about about just having peace and not just having joy and all these things, but it his heart is that and we said this at the beginning of this call that every man and woman be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. And if you stay in the closet, they'll never know. I'm thinking posture is a huge part of this as well. Like so so Craig, you're you're on the you're on the inside in the public square. You're working in the Senate as you mentioned. I'm guessing see here's here's my thinking is that I think where Christian

nationalism get goes funny is that the view is that we're supposed to dominate and have power and have control over these fears over the government over whatever. Whereas I think what Jesus has invited us into is no, I want you to come and take the lowest place and serve. And I'm guessing that's the posture and so if a if a Christian was wanting to was feeling called to show up and engage in the liberal party in the NDP or whatever. If if you feel like, you know, if you feel like that's where you're being called and if you feel like it's a godless place, I think the posture should be to come as a servant more than to come in and say come in with this attitude, I'm going to change everything.

Is that does that resonate with you or you push back on that? Well, yeah, no, I I I agree that should be our posture, but there's still that challenge of let's use conversion therapy. You know, the Liberal Party passed a conversion therapy law a few years ago. Yep. Deeply concerning for Christians. Deeply concerning for parents. Like what what are you going to do if you're a you're a Christian and your party is introducing bills like that. You you you can't vote for them. So now now it's going to be dependent on the structure of the party itself and the tolerance of the party itself. For example, when Justin Trudeau kicked out all Well, he didn't kick them

out, but he said, "Unless you're willing to support a woman's right to have an abortion, you can't run as a liberal." He grandfathered in the ones who were already there. They've all now since moved on. Now that that was a Justin Trudeau policy when he was actually still the in He wasn't He wasn't even Prime Minister yet. That's not a That's not a something that we've heard commentary on from a current from Prime Minister Mark Carney, so we don't know if that's changed or not. But the point is there's some places we can't be, but we need to We need to acknowledge that we should be there. If that makes sense. There's this There's this tension. We do We can't

just polarize everything because things can move. And if we can't be there today, what needs to shift so that we can be? And they're challenging kinds of things. The whole LGBTQ debate and situation, we know that there's fundamental challenges that Christians have with that because it's contrary to our to what the Bible teaches. But at the same time, our objective is not to run out all the LGBTQ people from Canada. Like that's that's not So So how do we If If I'm a member of Parliament, I represent the LGBT community and I represent the Christian community. I have to be able to represent both. Yes. Now, honestly, I would not have a problem with that, but I know a lot of

Christians who would have a problem with me doing that. And this this is a very real issue for for Christian um members of Parliament where the church will try to have them be polarized in their approach to public office and public policy. And we have to be able to find or understand that there is a way to be a Christian and hold not compromise your values yet at the same time public policy is not always going to represent those values. That's a challenging thing. Very challenging. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. When I was chief of staff for an MPP in Ontario, um you know, I worked in the constituency office and managed that office and a lot of our other operations. I was an EDA president. I

sat on four different other electoral districts association. Those are boards that are are responsible for for getting a candidate elected. And uh and so when I was working in the office, I I came to this real revelation that these people that we were in our constituency, these were the people that God gave us. That all the people in the constituents constituency were people that God gave us. Whether we agreed with them or not, our job was to serve them. And to serve them with the best of our ability. And I remember having conversation with with our MPP and she said to me, you know, in our in our writing, we had three municipalities. And uh and in the three

municipalities, there were two liberal mayors and one conservative mayor. And in fact, the conservative mayor went to the same church as I did and we sat in the same pew. So, I knew him well. The other two, I was constantly warned by my staff who had been long-term staffers like for a long long time and the member saying, "Don't really trust those liberals. We're not going to trust the liberal mayors." And I said to her, "I love listening cuz she got this. I said, 'No, they're going to love us.'" She says, "No, no, no, no, no, we're not going to work with them." I said, "No, no, no, no, no. They're going to love us. We're going to come alongside, we're going to work, and you know, I was 6

months on the job, and I had the mayor, one of the mayors from the municipality, we were at a festival, and we're doing the festival stuff in a in a festival parade, and the mayor comes up to me and he says, "You know, Chris, I've been the mayor of this city for 17 years, and we have never had a relationship with the MPP like we do today." And I said, "Well, that's really I said, "You know why that is, Mr. Mayor?" He goes, "No, why?" Said, "Because we love you." And he he went, "What?" I said, "Yeah, we love you." I said, "Do you want good things for your your this city?" So do we. We want good things. And you know what? We built these bridges. We were we were

in opposition on many things, but we were able to build bridges and come together and build good things. >> Yeah. And so it's not like always always always being in in in in opposition. We want to stand for justice. We want to stand for righteousness. We want to do these things. But you still have to shine light into the dark places, and so you have to get close enough to that, right? Because it's not like it's a laser beam. You have to get close enough. Let your light shine before men, so they can glorify your father in heaven. Yeah, and there's there's a lot we can agree on. The the one of the very first times I I talked about my book was to a group of leaders here in Ottawa in

conjunction with the national prayer breakfast um couple years ago, and one of the questions that came from the group of leaders was to do with do you think like how do you think non-Christians are going to view this idea of Christians influencing society? And I said, "They're going to love it." And they're The reason they're going to love it is because it creates a better society, and that Christian values and the influence of Judeo-Christianity has brought to Western society, to let's be specific, to Canada, a lot of the things we cherish, like the like individual rights, uh the that our justice system, that you are innocent until proven guilty, that you know, fair contracts, enforceable

con- like all of these things that we kind of take for granted are actually grew out of the roots of Judeo-Christian principles. They didn't exist prior to that. And the same with women with women's rights. This is a this is a a a big thing and I touch on it in the book talking about the early church. How did the early church grow from where they were at like, you know, 32 AD to 300 AD? Such phenomenal growth and impact. They did it because they did what Christ instructed them to do and one of those things was they were so countercultural. They they believed that women were equal to men. They believed that unborn life needed to be protected, so consequently their birthrate was much higher.

>> [laughter] >> They Today Christianity tends to have a get a bit of pushback by saying, "Well, you're you're you know, you're you're out of touch and you're this, you're that." Yet Christianity has actually led the way in individual rights, the rights of women, the right the rights of minorities. We've al- always been at the the forefront of this. And this is something I think we need we need to realize and move with confidence in the public square that we're not bringing a message that everybody is going to oppose. It's a message that has been very important for people to hear and they want to hear it even today. Doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything,

don't get me wrong. So, this has been really good, Craig. Thank you. I would just finish with this. What's one piece of advice you would give us as believers who are interested in our the direction of our country, government, so on. What's one piece of advice for Christians wanting to get involved in the public square who haven't been in the past. What would you say? The first piece of advice I want to say read my book, but that's going to sound >> No, that's good. But no, like I I can't It's a hard thing to boil it down to one thing. Yes. So I'm I'm going to say that like there there there is so much in this book and that you'll get so much out of it.

There's so many takeaways we haven't had a chance to talk about. So many things, so many nuggets, so many truths. That's that's seriously and honestly, if you're looking for a path forward, if you're looking for some hope, if you're looking for a little bit of clarity, read my book. Not just my book, there's other books as well. You like become open, just go on a search with Holy Spirit. How do we do this? And don't take everything at Be like the Bereans. Check it with scripture. Check it with Examine to see if these things are so cuz there's a lot of voices out there. And And even even my book is not 100% right. I don't know what's wrong in it, but I'll know 10 years from now, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And like we'll have more light, more illumination, more revelation. We'll be like, ah, I would have said that a little differently. But that's all part of the conversation. So be in the conversation. Be Be engaged in wrestling with these things and moving forward to be more effective. That's great. And I would echo that. Read the book. Like you said, it's it's a huge topic to boil down into one point. It's an excellent book. It's very informative, very revelatory. It's It's It builds faith. It's not a It's not complaining by any means about what's going on. Chris, I'll throw it to you as well. Do you have any last words you want to leave after this conversation? I would

just reiterate once more because we were, you know, it's it's sometimes it feels like you're on an accidental journey. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. Craig, you started in an accidental journey. I like I moved accidentally into places. So I would say just move your feet, move forward, see where the Lord takes you, and open the doors, and try the doors, and and just say this, taste and see that the Lord is good. You know, when he wants you to go on these journeys, it is like I had no idea I would be Had I not laid down what we had, the dream of being a 24/7 worship leader, right? That's what I really wanted to do, 24/7, being in the in the in the Tabernacle of David

scenario, worship and prayer. I could do that all day. I love that. And the Lord, I really felt the Lord speak to me, go into this on this journey in politics. I had no grit for it. I had no idea what I was doing. But it was like it was accidental, and the Lord just kept opening doors, and opening doors, and opening doors, and it was an it was a a journey of learning. So, I really really learned a lot. So, I would say, be open to learn. Read as much as you can, watch as much as you can, be engaged, right? Be engaged. And if the Lord is speaking to you about about He's speaking to us He's always speaking to us about going into all the world and making disciples

of of nations. That's what we are. That doesn't necessarily mean a country, but it means an ethnos group. He's talking about people, and he wants us to make disciples of nations, and that requires us to get off the couch. That's I know our time is ticking down, but I got to jump in on that, cuz Go for it. Go for it. That's so important. When you're when you're in when you're on the field, when you're when you're in the midst of the challenges of life, you often do not see what God is doing. Like I know when we were with the Association of Test Like all the way through 10, 20 It took 30 years in some cases for us to look back and see, that's what that was about. That's what

God was doing. And in the meantime, we had to be faithful. And I think of I think of David and Goliath here because this is part of the story we miss. David would have never had the opportunity to defeat Goliath if the children of Israel would not have held the ground for 40 days. So, they stayed there. They kept showing up day after day after day until God sent the man who defeated Goliath. They could have given up at any time and they did not. We like We like to criticize them and say, "Oh, yeah, they didn't But, they Sometimes victory is just showing up. That's right. So, be faithful even even in the tough spots. Just be faithful. I love that. Be faithful in the little

things and God will give you more. That's awesome. So, Craig, thank you so much for doing this. It's been great having this conversation with you. It's been a pleasure. >> Again, and if you're if you're watching or listening, we recommend check out Craig's book, To Shift a Nation, How the Body of Christ Can Effectively Promote Change in Canada. We'll put the link to where you can find it in on Amazon. Anywhere else they can look for it, Amazon's the best place. You can get it off my website, but you Frank, you're going to pay more for it because it's not free shipping. But, if you don't have you don't if you don't have Amazon, you can order it off the website to shiftanation.ca.

But, if you have Prime, honestly, that's the cheapest way to go. Go for it. All right, excellent. Thank you very much and thank you again for tuning in to another episode of The Prayer Stream. >> [music] >> We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to Prayer Stream, a podcast from the National House of Prayer. Click the like button, share, and subscribe [music] to stay up to date on all our future episodes. For more information on upcoming events, prayer resources, or the Canopy [music] of Prayer, please visit us at www.nhop.ca. See you next time.